Torture - Few want to touch that hot potato

NY Times article

Chris Christie emphatically and unexpectedly denounced torture as a means of gathering evidence. “I cannot believe, given the history of this country, that no matter what the threat to our country that we would forsake our protection of liberties to the extent that we would advocate torture as a way of getting evidence,” he said then, adding, “You have to be coolheaded in times of crisis to be able to not go too far.”

But on Wednesday, Mr. Christie, the New Jersey governor and potential Republican presidential candidate in 2016, was hardly eager to revisit the torture issue. Among presumptive candidates in both parties — including Hillary Rodham Clinton and Jeb Bush — he had company in his reticence.

I saw this on IMGUR today and it provoked some thought.

We are so inundated with issues of things that are not pretty, not comfortable, not the thing to hang your hat on if you want to be elected...and we never get to the truth.  Politics and truth do not go together.  As much as there have been leaders I have admired I know none are infallible.  

And I hate to say this but there is just something about Dick Cheney's way of speaking to the interviewers that make him appear condescending and arrogant.  And when he speaks of the best role he took for the sake of safety for the USA - it doesn't feel genuine.

OK, those are my emotional takes.  

The tough side of me says if you have an enemy in hand and you are trying to prevent another catastrophe as 9/11, yes, you may scare the bejeebers out of them to get answers, names, dates, etc.

Torture, according to the Geneva Convention, NO.

I think the 2016 election will be as the 2008 and 2012.  A revisit to the Bush Administration.  Again we will not hear of the platform of the Democratic party but will only be reminded who is at fault for the country's woes.  

Nothing sticks to President Obama and his administration so as long as the Democrats can squeeze more mileage out of the "8 failed years" of the Bush administration they will do so to tarnish any Republican candidate.

Benghazi is brushed aside and we return to torture of terrorists.  
Really?
What is up is down...

I guess no one wants to realize planned assasinations take place.

One of my fears is having a breathing problem. If I was waterboarded, I would be singing like a canary.

I'm just glad the report came out so everybody that has been denying we used torture will know now that it happened.  I'm surprised that Bush didn't know about it until 2006, but he evidently told the CIA he didn't want to know what they were doing, so that's how he escaped having to worry about the World Court. What a cowardly leader. The buck sure wasn't going to stop with him, not that buck anyway.
There was no excuse for what we did and it shows the world that we're not so morally superior to other countries. We can't claim righteousness and do acts like those. The report said it also led to no information of any real value, just proved that people will make up any kind of story to stop the pain.
911 is not an excuse for throwing away the integrity of this country. I'm glad the cat is out of the bag on this one. At least we were honest enough to tell the story.

Of course Dick Cheney is condescending and arrogant. He was the head of George W Bush's committee that was supposed to recommend a vice presidential candidate and the name he came up with was himself. He's a cold, cruel, inhuman S.O.B that never needs to be part of our government again.

I found my discussion about this issue quite stimulating over on the PDF.

*****CHUCKLE*****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9mwELXPGbA

Eddard wrote:

I'm just glad the report came out so everybody that has been denying we used torture will know now that it happened.  I'm surprised that Bush didn't know about it until 2006, but he evidently told the CIA he didn't want to know what they were doing, so that's how he escaped having to worry about the World Court. What a cowardly leader. The buck sure wasn't going to stop with him, not that buck anyway.
There was no excuse for what we did and it shows the world that we're not so morally superior to other countries. We can't claim righteousness and do acts like those. The report said it also led to no information of any real value, just proved that people will make up any kind of story to stop the pain.
911 is not an excuse for throwing away the integrity of this country. I'm glad the cat is out of the bag on this one. At least we were honest enough to tell the story.  

Of course Dick Cheney is condescending and arrogant. He was the head of George W Bush's committee that was supposed to recommend a vice presidential candidate and the name he came up with was himself.  He's a cold, cruel, inhuman S.O.B that never needs to be part of our government again.

Of course Oblamer doesn't condone torture - he has a kill list for drones with the names of several U.S. citizens crossed out including an innocent teenager. Yep, no witnesses to torture for Oblamer means no excuses later. The dead can't talk.

nochain wrote:

Eddard wrote:

I'm just glad the report came out so everybody that has been denying we used torture will know now that it happened.  I'm surprised that Bush didn't know about it until 2006, but he evidently told the CIA he didn't want to know what they were doing, so that's how he escaped having to worry about the World Court. What a cowardly leader. The buck sure wasn't going to stop with him, not that buck anyway.
There was no excuse for what we did and it shows the world that we're not so morally superior to other countries. We can't claim righteousness and do acts like those. The report said it also led to no information of any real value, just proved that people will make up any kind of story to stop the pain.
911 is not an excuse for throwing away the integrity of this country. I'm glad the cat is out of the bag on this one. At least we were honest enough to tell the story.  

Of course Dick Cheney is condescending and arrogant. He was the head of George W Bush's committee that was supposed to recommend a vice presidential candidate and the name he came up with was himself.  He's a cold, cruel, inhuman S.O.B that never needs to be part of our government again.

Of course Oblamer doesn't condone torture - he has a kill list for drones with the names of several U.S. citizens crossed out including an innocent teenager. Yep, no witnesses to torture for Oblamer means no excuses later. The dead can't talk.

Don't disagree with the drone policies....but to accept that and point fingers at enhanced interrogation techniques as "torture" certainly should be seen by reasonable people as hypocrisy at the least...Amazing how some try and take the high moral road on 'torture' but are fine with the drone usage...perhaps some of the same people that called President Bush a 'war criminal' for his limited usage of drones...

It may be an just an obscure observation....but given the choice of being waterboarded/sleep depravation/ loud music etc., over having a terrorist standing behind me with a blade is that really a choice?....And of these two...is it that difficult to see which is truly torture?....If not that explains a lot about our problems!....

The difference, as I see it, is that the guys killed by drones are a threat to do bodily harm and prisoners are essentially no threat.

Prisoners don't send out suicide bombers, plant IEDs, and ambush our folks.

Eric wrote:

The difference, as I see it, is that the guys killed by drones are a threat to do bodily harm and prisoners are essentially no threat.

Prisoners don't send out suicide bombers, plant IEDs, and ambush our folks.

Until released and start all over again..... The lack of logic is what is astounding and the use of word torture does not apply in the case of enhanced interrogations....Can't have it both ways and sometimes measures are needed to protect American lives....Further the democrats were briefed and provided information as to what was taking place and now their selective memories and fake outrage is on display...

Democrats aren't the only people who were enraged by the report. John McCain was not too happy with it either.  This shouldn't be a party issue. Congress was not in the loop about what the CIA was doing, so I don't know where you get the statement that Democrats were briefed on what was taking place. Neither Democrats nor most Republicans were in the loop at the time this torture was taking place. There are things in this report that were not known outside the agency and a few high ranking administration officials. Those people preferred to call it enhanced interrogation instead of torture. It was torture, period. Renaming torture doesn't make it not torture. Playing word games does not change the inhumanity of the activity. That's just double-speak and quite frankly, BS.
It's an issue of American moral superiority or moral inferiority and we come out on the wrong  side when you hear the results of the report. We proclaim that we care about human rights and are better people than those we're fighting against. That's where the hypocrisy comes in.
Democrats and Republicans SHOULD BOTH  be outraged at this report.

It blows my mind that some people are defending what was done.

Eddard wrote:

Democrats aren't the only people who were enraged by the report. John McCain was not too happy with it either.  This shouldn't be a party issue. Congress was not in the loop about what the CIA was doing, so I don't know where you get the statement that Democrats were briefed on what was taking place. Neither Democrats nor most Republicans were in the loop at the time this torture was taking place. There are things in this report that were not known outside the agency and a few high ranking administration officials. Those people preferred to call it enhanced interrogation instead of torture. It was torture, period. Renaming torture doesn't make it not torture. Playing word games does not change the inhumanity of the activity. That's just double-speak and quite frankly, BS.  
It's an issue of American moral superiority or moral inferiority and we come out on the wrong  side when you hear the results of the report. We proclaim that we care about human rights and are better people than those we're fighting against. That's where the hypocrisy comes in.
Democrats and Republicans SHOULD BOTH  be outraged at this report.

It blows my mind that some people are defending what was done.

Sen Diane Feinstein (D-CA) was the driving force of the release and as she said....because democrats were not going to have control of the Senate in January...Now there's a real logical reason to release any type of report especially pertaining to national security...

Your assumption that Congress was not briefed or 'in the loop' is not correct and there are records that indicate that the were briefed...Once again this is much like the vote for military action in Iraq....Voted for giving the president authorization and then when the political winds blow a different direction...distance yourself from your own vote/opinions...Wasn't it John Kerry that actually voted for/against before actually voting for/against the action?...

Too bad the moral superior democrats in the Senate refused to investigate the IRS...NSA...and other less important scandals and did nothing except go in front of the cameras with faked outrage...Once again Feinstein defended (NSA) until she found out that her staff was checked into then she DEMANDED an apology but refused to go any further....what political courage!

I read the other day that the supposedly "unrecoverable" IRS e-mails were recovered.

Quote :

WASHINGTON –  Federal investigators have told Congress that they have recovered data that may include lost emails from one of the pivotal figures in the controversy over the Internal Revenue Service's treatment of tea party groups, congressional aides said Friday.

Frederick Hill, a spokesman for Republicans who run the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, said the investigators said at a staff briefing Friday that they have recovered up to 30,000 emails to and from Lois Lerner.

A statement from Democrats and Republicans on the Senate Finance Committee was more measured. It said the investigators have recovered data that may include Lerner emails.

The investigators were from the Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration, which audits the IRS. A spokeswoman for the inspector general, Karen Kraushaar, declined to comment, saying the investigation was continuing.

Eric wrote:

I read the other day that the supposedly "unrecoverable" IRS e-mails were recovered.

Quote :

WASHINGTON –  Federal investigators have told Congress that they have recovered data that may include lost emails from one of the pivotal figures in the controversy over the Internal Revenue Service's treatment of tea party groups, congressional aides said Friday.

Frederick Hill, a spokesman for Republicans who run the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, said the investigators said at a staff briefing Friday that they have recovered up to 30,000 emails to and from Lois Lerner.

A statement from Democrats and Republicans on the Senate Finance Committee was more measured. It said the investigators have recovered data that may include Lerner emails.

The investigators were from the Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration, which audits the IRS. A spokeswoman for the inspector general, Karen Kraushaar, declined to comment, saying the investigation was continuing.

Again....what has the senate under the leadership (?) of harry reid done except to investigate of even debate or vote on whether to investigate...Can't help it that some don't like it but in this circumstance it's been the democrats circling the wagons to protect this administration... It was the cowh that said he was outraged and that heads would roll..then it was not one smidgeon of evidence to prove that this wasn't just a couple of out of control IRS agents in Cincinnati...Lerner was allowed vacation and a great retirement and yet it didn't take long to decide to investigate the Navy Seal that killed obl....

Nochain and MW, why are your responses always the same? I didn't even mention Obama in my post. You always change the subject to him.  Obama is no saint either. His drone use is as immoral as the acts Bush allowed but if he was a republican you'd be praising him for it.

The torture this country engaged in is a war crime under every definition of a war crime.
Some of the things Obama has done might fall under that definition too, though he refuses to call it a war.  Anytime anyone uses the words "enhanced interrogation" in a sentence I immediately lose all respect for their honesty. That's hypocrisy at its highest level. It was at the highest levels that those words were invented to whitewash pure evil. It's "Newspeak, where the only word for evil is Ungood. I can only wonder how many times residents of the white house over the last 50 years have reread 1984 and admired the tactics used in it. Both parties hire consultants to create new terms to cover up their sins. They quote them to the media and the media spreads them around until everything becomes relative. It's obscene and that word doesn't need recreating.

Bush and Cheney were both involved in some of the worst activities in US history.
That doesn't have a thing in the world to do with Obama, and nobody is defending Obama on this thread.  Not even if that's what you want to move the discussion into.

Eddard wrote:

Nochain and MW, why are your responses always the same? I didn't even mention Obama in my post. You always change the subject to him.  Obama is no saint either. His drone use is as immoral as the acts Bush allowed but if he was a republican you'd be praising him for it.

The torture this country engaged in is a war crime under every definition of a war crime.
Some of the things Obama has done might fall under that definition too, though he refuses to call it a war.  Anytime anyone uses the words "enhanced interrogation" in a sentence I immediately lose all respect for their honesty. That's hypocrisy at its highest level. It was at the highest levels that those words were invented to whitewash pure evil. It's "Newspeak, where the only word for evil is Ungood.  I can only wonder how many times residents of the white house over the last 50 years have reread 1984 and admired the tactics used in it. Both parties hire consultants to create new terms to cover up their sins. They quote them to the media and the media spreads them around until everything becomes relative. It's obscene and that word doesn't need recreating.

Bush and Cheney were both involved in some of the worst activities in US history.
That doesn't have a thing in the world to do with Obama, and nobody is defending Obama on this thread.  Not even if that's what you want to move the discussion into.

Sometimes the truth is really dull. I understand.
Best to just take a good nap and ignore it.

Eddard wrote:

I didn't even mention Obama in my post. You always change the subject to him.  Obama is no saint either. His drone use is as immoral as the acts Bush allowed but if he was a republican you'd be praising him for it.

I mention him because he is the CURRENT President and I prefer to discuss the NOW not the has been. And no you are quite wrong about Bush, I have always said it was a big mistake to enter Iraq again. Their use of torture or whatever you want to call it was ineffective and unnecessary. They should never have taken prisoners in the first place.

nochain wrote:

Eddard wrote:

I didn't even mention Obama in my post. You always change the subject to him.  Obama is no saint either. His drone use is as immoral as the acts Bush allowed but if he was a republican you'd be praising him for it.

I mention him because he is the CURRENT President and I prefer to discuss the NOW not the has been. And no you are quite wrong about Bush, I have always said it was a big mistake to enter Iraq again. Their use of torture or whatever you want to call it was ineffective and unnecessary. They should never have taken prisoners in the first place.

Geez....I support drones and eliminating pos...murdering terrorists....and/or those that support groups that have intentions of killing...harming Americans and destroying our nation...When did this become radical thinking?....

Support enhanced interrogation procedures that once again are designed to extract information from pos...murdering terrorists and/or those that support groups that have intentions of killing...harming Americans and destroying our nations...When did we become such a politically correct society that national security/protection isn't our top priority....

The thought conflict with this administration is that they don't want to use the words...terrorist/terrorism but yet they'll use technology to destroy terrorists and terrorism with drones but somehow enhanced interrogation techniques [proven to have been VALUABLE and lead to sending terrorists to their maker] are torture....



******This post was not approved or done with any direction from the poster known as 'nochain'....His response and or opinion may not be the same.*******

Drone executions are fine, as I said they should never have taken prisoners in the first place - treat those terrorist ragheads like they treat their captured - kill them on the spot. End of "prisoner" and "torture" problems.

nochain wrote:

Drone executions are fine, as I said they should never have taken prisoners in the first place - treat those terrorist ragheads like they treat their captured - kill them on the spot. End of "prisoner" and "torture" problems.

At the risk of being accused that I always agree or post the same opinion......Agree!. Makes sense since it's been established that enhanced interrogation techniques are 'torture' and killing the 'terrorist ragheads' is not...then why be accused of torturing in the first place?.. The only flaw is that these big...bad...brave ....fight to the finish pos terrorists tend to surrender or crawl down a hole when facing the US Military---so may as well find out what they know....Would have solved the Gitmo controversy but they got a beautiful soccer complex!...

When they turn GITMO into a resort I'll be going there, went there back in the 80's and it's a great place. Those detainees (terrorists) never had it so good, they ought to just load em up and flyem into the middle of a desert and drop them off. While flying over the desert.......right out of the ramp.......

nochain wrote:

When they turn GITMO into a resort I'll be going there, went there back in the 80's and it's a great place. Those detainees (terrorists) never had it so good, they ought to just load em up and flyem into the middle of a desert and drop them off. While flying over the desert.......right out of the ramp.......

QUIT posting things that I agree with!.....Mechanical malfunction not intentionally done and a tragedy.....