I can't believe the Air Force did this

Ever hear of the "Missing Man Table"? It's symbolic of those missing military personnel whether POWs or MIA. The table is found in many military installations and veterans clubs. There is one at the American Legion Post I belong to. If someone at my Post suggested doing something like this there would be a revolution. But the Air Force did it because someone whined about being "offended". I'm sick of it.

"Air Force removes Bible from POW-MIA display"

On March 14 Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Welsh told members of the House Armed Services committee that there was no war on religious liberty.

“The single biggest frustration I’ve had in this job is the perception that somehow there is religious persecution inside the United States Air Force,” the general told lawmakers. “It is not true.”

If that’s true, perhaps Gen. Welsh could explain why a Bible was removed from a POW/MIA Missing Man Table at Patrick Air Force Base in Florida. The removal of the Good Book was first reported by the Gannett-owned newspaper Florida Today.

Base officials confirmed to Fox News Monday that the entire Missing Man Table display had been removed from a dining hall because of the Bible. A press statement said the inclusion of the Bible ignited “controversy and division.”



The items on the table are explained here:

The table is round -- to show our everlasting concern for our missing men.

The tablecloth is white -- symbolizing the purity of their motives when answering the call to duty.

The single red rose, displayed in a vase, reminds us of the life of each of the missing, and the[ir] loved ones and friends of these Americans who keep the faith, awaiting answers.

The vase is tied with a red ribbon, symbol of our continued determination to account for our missing.

A slice of lemon on the bread plate is to remind us of the bitter fate of those captured and missing in a foreign land.

A pinch of salt symbolizes the tears endured by those missing and their families who seek answers.

The Bible represents the strength gained through faith to sustain those lost from our country, founded as one nation under God.

The glass is inverted -- to symbolize their inability to share this evening's toast.
The chairs are empty -- they are missing.

nochain wrote:

Ever hear of the "Missing Man Table"? It's symbolic of those missing military personnel whether POWs or MIA. The table is found in many military installations and veterans clubs. There is one at the American Legion Post I belong to. If someone at my Post suggested doing something like this there would be a revolution. But the Air Force did it because someone whined about being "offended". I'm sick of it.

"Air Force removes Bible from POW-MIA display"

On March 14 Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Welsh told members of the House Armed Services committee that there was no war on religious liberty.

“The single biggest frustration I’ve had in this job is the perception that somehow there is religious persecution inside the United States Air Force,” the general told lawmakers. “It is not true.”

If that’s true, perhaps Gen. Welsh could explain why a Bible was removed from a POW/MIA Missing Man Table at Patrick Air Force Base in Florida. The removal of the Good Book was first reported by the Gannett-owned newspaper Florida Today.

Base officials confirmed to Fox News Monday that the entire Missing Man Table display had been removed from a dining hall because of the Bible. A press statement said the inclusion of the Bible ignited “controversy and division.”



The items on the table are explained here:

The table is round -- to show our everlasting concern for our missing men.

The tablecloth is white -- symbolizing the purity of their motives when answering the call to duty.

The single red rose, displayed in a vase, reminds us of the life of each of the missing, and the[ir] loved ones and friends of these Americans who keep the faith, awaiting answers.

The vase is tied with a red ribbon, symbol of our continued determination to account for our missing.

A slice of lemon on the bread plate is to remind us of the bitter fate of those captured and missing in a foreign land.

A pinch of salt symbolizes the tears endured by those missing and their families who seek answers.

The Bible represents the strength gained through faith to sustain those lost from our country, founded as one nation under God.

The glass is inverted -- to symbolize their inability to share this evening's toast.
The chairs are empty -- they are missing.

     The political correct agenda is on display in this moronic decision.  Maybe it's about time people start to say enough is enough and push back against this stupidity.  Everyone can be offended by anything but to continue to make the majority change for a few is outta control.   There are traditions that NEED to be upheld and showing respect for those that are missing should be a real red line in the sand.  Too bad this AF Gen is lacking the intestinal fortitude to do what is right...grow a pair General!


      It's fitting and only right that our Legion should have a POW/MIA on display and before every meeting they are recognized and remembered. I'd love to be present if someone decided that this was offensive or any part of it removed.  A 'revolution' would be mild for what would happen.

There is no Missing Main Table per se at the VFW where I am from, but there is what one might call a Killed In Action table. I don't know that I can recall everything that is on the table, but it includes the names of all of our KIA servicemen, an American flag is on the wall behind the table, the bible (which is open to a certain passage) is on the table, and a full, cold beer is in front of the empty chair. The glass is never empty and the beer is always cold whenever anyone's in the building. I never asked what they do when they close for the night... a glass of whiskey, maybe? The table is right by the pool tables, and I once saw someone mistakenly set their beer on it. Several patrons immediately explained the error and asked the guy to leave.

I am not religious and never have been, but the pc police has just gotten absurd. Part of being "tolerant" (to borrow one of their own favored pc words) should be to be accepting and "tolerant" of the thing/s that "the majority" believes in and ascribes to, should it not? "Tolerance" should not be reserved only for "minorities," be them racial, religious, or otherwise. I know for a fact that the Christian bible has comforted many an American warrior during times of hardship. It seems cruel and heartless to remove the book from the Missing Man Table.

This separation of church and state needs a constitutional amendment to correct this insanity.  It ought to be okay to display symbols like the bible (in this thread) and a cross at a military ceremony... just as long as non-believers are not forced to participate in religious activities... or discriminated against for not participating.

Edit: A display of the ten commandments in a courthouse or a Nativity Scene on government property or displays saying "Merry Christmas" don't force certain values on citizens... it is our heritage and reflects the values of our founding fathers. As long as public monies are not spent on said displays, I certainly don't have a problem with them.

I agree with that Eric, and again, I am not religious. I would also submit that we should still be teaching children to say the Pledge of Allegiance in school each morning. I swear, you could have knocked me over with a feather when I found out they'd stopped. Unbelievable.

riceme wrote:

There is no Missing Main Table per se at the VFW where I am from, but there is what one might call a Killed In Action table. I don't know that I can recall everything that is on the table, but it includes the names of all of our KIA servicemen, an American flag is on the wall behind the table, the bible (which is open to a certain passage) is on the table, and a full, cold beer is in front of the empty chair. The glass is never empty and the beer is always cold whenever anyone's in the building. I never asked what they do when they close for the night... a glass of whiskey, maybe? The table is right by the pool tables, and I once saw someone mistakenly set their beer on it. Several patrons immediately explained the error and asked the guy to leave.

I am not religious and never have been, but the pc police has just gotten absurd. Part of being "tolerant" (to borrow one of their own favored pc words) should be to be accepting and "tolerant" of the thing/s that "the majority" believes in and ascribes to, should it not? "Tolerance" should not be reserved only for "minorities," be them racial, religious, or otherwise. I know for a fact that the Christian bible has comforted many an American warrior during times of hardship. It seems cruel and heartless to remove the book from the Missing Man Table.

Thanks for that info....not aware of a KIA Table but also another tradition that is fitting.

mw, it could be that we have a KIA table because, as a small town, we don't have any POW/MIA, but KIA from each war. I should have also mentioned that part of the tradition is that on the day that each respective warrior was killed (and sometimes also on his birthday), a place is made for him at the bar between two people (usually friends or family). The photograph of him is taken off the wall and placed on the bar in front of the barstool along with the plaque with his name and rank. Then people buy him beers all day and tell stories about him. It can be either a happy rememberance, heartbreaking, or both.

riceme wrote:

mw, it could be that we have a KIA table because, as a small town, we don't have any POW/MIA, but KIA from each war. I should have also mentioned that part of the tradition is that on the day that each respective warrior was killed (and sometimes also on his birthday), a place is made for him at the bar between two people (usually friends or family). The photograph of him is taken off the wall and placed on the bar in front of the barstool along with the plaque with his name and rank. Then people buy him beers all day and tell stories about him. It can be either a happy rememberance, heartbreaking, or both.

We have about a three day period where a barstool/bar area is decorated to remember the fallen service member with his/her favorite beverage, photo, and possibly personal effects. Members buy drink chips that will be on display and the Post flag is at half-staff. Then the first meeting following the death(s) those that have passed are remembered with a prayer. No matter what or how it's done it's a fitting tribute and you are correct starts out sad and then the stories begin and the mood lightens with remembering the individuals in life.

Right... my buddy Jason liked Belvedere vodka and stout beer (not together, haha), so that's what everyone buys him on his birthday and on the day he was KIA.

I like the way your folks do it. That sounds nice.

Excellent thread, NoChain. Thanks!

Melissa wrote:

Excellent thread, NoChain. Thanks!

It's good to see you post! Miss you!!

I have not heard anything about students no longer saying the pledge of allegiance at schools. I believe they still do, but I also believe there are e-mails going around on the internet that contain falsehoods geared at revving up the anger of conservatives over things that haven't even happened.

It would be nice if everyone would check out all the e-mails they receive and not take every one of them for the gospel. They are a long way from being gospel.

Jehovah's witnesses are not required to say the pledge, and those who have some cultural or religious reason not to do so should not be required to do so. We are a free nation.  I understand that freedom was bought with American blood, but it is still all about the freedom to believe as we choose. Limiting it for anyone, whether you disagree with them or not, diminishes it.

I don't care if Bibles are placed on any table but I also think there needs to be a respectful symbol there for any Jewish servicemen who may be lost in action.  Then maybe there needs to be a handful of dirt for those who worship the earth mother?  Really- once you get started with religious symbolism, you are going to offend someone. I have relatives who served in wars who wouldn't want a Bible put on a table in their memory because they are atheists. The flag is fine, that is the flag they served under. But they didn't do it for religious reasons or to satisfy any religious cause.
The idea that we are a "Christian" nation is full of flaws. We're a diverse nation in which more people are cutting their grass, watching sports on TV, or visiting the beach on Sundays than are sitting in a church service somewhere.

Times have changed and you can't respect the diversity of our culture without actually showing that you respect it. Religion is a private matter, for everyone to decide and no one to inflict on anyone else.

Whether we like it or not, the Bible (if it includes the New Testament) is the symbol of only ONE religion and that is Christianity. Placing it on a table which is in memory of all our lost servicemen is a huge assumption.

Otter wrote:

Times have changed and you can't respect the diversity of our culture without actually showing that you respect it. Religion is a private matter, for everyone to decide and no one to inflict on anyone else.

Sure let's trample on all traditions like the MIA table. OK, then while we're at it let's do away with a few more "traditions" with some "unacceptable" religious overtones that may not be "all-inclusive":

Thanksgiving

Easter

Christmas

Pledge of Allegiance

Of course some pesky verbiage in the Constitution will have to modified in Article. VII:

"done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord

Yep, the majority no longer rules in this formerly fair Republic. Nope we will now cater to every hypersensitive individual to create Utopia for the masses. Amen.

I did not learn about kids no longer saying the pledge of allegiance from some email. I learned about it from friends and relatives who have children in public schools and from friends who are teachers. Why is everything always about "conservatives" to you? It's very tiring, not to mention predictable.

It positively warms the heart that you've no protest against the presence of the United States flag at the KIA and MIA tables at our local VFWs. I'm sure we all thank you for that.

Are you sure you only want a symbol for the Jews who are missing and killed in action? Not for the Muslims, Mormons, Sikhs, Agnostics and Athiests,... no one else??

riceme wrote:

I did not learn about kids no longer saying the pledge of allegiance from some email. I learned about it from friends and relatives who have children in public schools and from friends who are teachers. Why is everything always about "conservatives" to you? It's very tiring, not to mention predictable.

It positively warms the heart that you've no protest against the presence of the United States flag at the KIA and MIA tables at our local VFWs. I'm sure we all thank you for that.

Are you sure you only want a symbol for the Jews who are missing and killed in action? Not for the Muslims, Mormons, Sikhs, Agnostics and Athiests,... no one else??

I believe your friends are misinformed. The pledge is still recited in Escambia County schools, I can assure you of that.
I actually did not mention the symbols for all those other religions because there are far too many religions in the world, and even in the US,  for them all to be recognized.
Which is why, unless every serviceman who is missing is a Christian, I think the air force was right in removing the Bible. I have a close relative who served in Vietnam more than one tour and he would resent a Bible being placed on a table in his honor because he is a confirmed atheist. I'm certain he is not the only one.
What I am saying is we should not claim attributes (such as a Christian faith)to those we do not know just because it is the majority religion in this country.
I would also say that Christianity has nothing to do with war because it is a religion of peace,
but I knew I'd be slammed even more for saying that than for saying what I did say.

One good thing about our country is that the majority cannot impose a religion on the minority.
And I don't remember Christ trying to IMPOSE his religion on anyone. IMO, that's a big problem with religion in this country today. Too many people believe that Christianity and its values should be forced on others.
That's just the opposite of the free will that the Bible teaches about accepting Christianity.
I suspect the air force felt the presence of the Bible on the table was an effort by those still alive and present to ascribe that religion to all who had died or who were missing, and it isn't appropriate to do that. The Wiccans and the Jews who died or went missing in Iraq or Afghanistan can no longer speak for themselves. Who knows, maybe some of their parents or spouses objected. If they did, I think their sons or daughters earned the right to not be represented by a religion they did not believe in.

I didn't make the statements I made expecting any agreement from anyone else on this forum.
I also didn't make them as an atheist or agnostic, because I'm not one. I simply know that this country represents every citizen and not just religious ones.

Otter wrote:

riceme wrote:

Why is everything always about "conservatives" to you? It's very tiring, not to mention predictable.

It positively warms the heart that you've no protest against the presence of the United States flag at the KIA and MIA tables at our local VFWs. I'm sure we all thank you for that.

I have a close relative who served in Vietnam more than one tour and he would resent a Bible being placed on a table in his honor because he is a confirmed atheist. I'm certain he is not the only one.

The symbols on the MIA table (have you ever seen one?) are not for ONE person but service people as a whole, those missing/KIA, the intent is to remind those still among the living not to forget the sacrifices of those who are no longer here. You do realize we still have at least 1 known POW and many MIAs don't you? The fact that the Air Force catered to one hypersensitive person who can't respect the traditions of service is reprehensible. Have you ever been in the service? I suspect that if not you wouldn't understand since there are many faiths represented in the services and for some reason this was never an issue. So sure, lets just ignore another tradition and cater to anyone OUTSIDE the mainstream and ignore the vast majority who aren't so easily miffed by a simple table they could easily walk around without looking and being "offended". Yep, a true progressive Utopia.

If the mention of God offends someone, they should NOT worship money, but there have been lawsuits asking for money about having the word God on our money.. Would Mohammad, Buddha, or ANY other name be acceptable??

How wonderful for Escambia County that the Pledge of Allegiance is still recited each morning. Happily, my universe exists outside of the borough that I live in:

http://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/Many-schools-skip-Pledge-of-Allegiance-4379740.php

I am not a Christian and I never have been. So why don't you tell ME a little more about having Christianity IMPOSED upon ME??? You know... Since you're the goddamned expert on the matter.

The presence of the book only has the meaning, power and significance that you give it. It's an inanimate object. It cannot hurt anyone or impose its content upon those unwilling to read its content.

Otter wrote:

riceme wrote:

I did not learn about kids no longer saying the pledge of allegiance from some email. I learned about it from friends and relatives who have children in public schools and from friends who are teachers. Why is everything always about "conservatives" to you? It's very tiring, not to mention predictable.

It positively warms the heart that you've no protest against the presence of the United States flag at the KIA and MIA tables at our local VFWs. I'm sure we all thank you for that.

Are you sure you only want a symbol for the Jews who are missing and killed in action? Not for the Muslims, Mormons, Sikhs, Agnostics and Athiests,... no one else??

I believe your friends are misinformed. The pledge is still recited in Escambia County schools, I can assure you of that.
I actually did not mention the symbols for all those other religions because there are far too many religions in the world, and even in the US,  for them all to be recognized.
Which is why, unless every serviceman who is missing is a Christian, I think the air force was right in removing the Bible. I have a close relative who served in Vietnam more than one tour and he would resent a Bible being placed on a table in his honor because he is a confirmed atheist. I'm certain he is not the only one.
What I am saying is we should not claim attributes (such as a Christian faith)to those we do not know just because it is the majority religion in this country.
I would also say that Christianity has nothing to do with war because it is a religion of peace,
but I knew I'd be slammed even more for saying that than for saying what I did say.

One good thing about our country is that the majority cannot impose a religion on the minority.
And I don't remember Christ trying to IMPOSE his religion on anyone. IMO, that's a big problem with religion in this country today. Too many people believe that Christianity and its values should be forced on others.
That's just the opposite of the free will that the Bible teaches about accepting Christianity.
I suspect the air force felt the presence of the Bible on the table was an effort by those still alive and present to ascribe that religion to all who had died or who were missing, and it isn't appropriate to do that. The Wiccans and the Jews who died or went missing in Iraq or Afghanistan can no longer speak for themselves. Who knows, maybe some of their parents or spouses objected. If they did, I think their sons or daughters earned the right to not be represented by a religion they did not believe in.

I didn't make the statements I made expecting any agreement from anyone else on this forum.
I also didn't make them as an atheist or agnostic, because I'm not one. I simply know that this country represents every citizen and not just religious ones.

Jake92 wrote:

If the mention of God offends someone, they should NOT worship money, but there have been lawsuits asking for money about having the word God on our money..  Would Mohammad, Buddha, or ANY other name be acceptable??

I have serious doubts that  God is  interested in what we write on our money. No, I'm not speaking for him, but a lot of it sure isn't spent on Godly purposes.   Putting HIS name on it is  just another way that this country  has pretended to be a Christian nation without acting like one for most of our history.  A lot of the designations of our "trust in God" came during the 1950's, such as saying we are a nation "under God" in our pledge of allegiance. No one said that before the Eisenhower administration, and the soldiers who fought for us in WWII were certainly raised to be as good of Americans as the ones in this generation are.
And all without saying "under God" in that pledge.

No, I've never been in the military and I don't think that makes me or anyone else a lesser person or less a good American than anyone who has served, so that argument gets nowhere with me. Serving in the military used to be a duty and now it is a voluntary decision.It's not for everyone and no one is the less for it not being what they choose to do with their lives.
As far as professions go, I respect firemen more than any other. I am in awe of anyone who serves as a fireman. They are braver people than I will ever be, and no one has any reason to wonder why they are doing their job or what they are accomplishing when they do it. Nobody orders them to do it against their will, no politician makes a decision and tells them who their enemy should be. They risk their lives every single day for their fellowman no matter what nationality those people may be.
The arrogance that comes from former military people who want to require others to have served in order to offer an opinion is just that- arrogance.

I'm glad I stated my opinion and I suspect it is also the opinion of the air force, since the air force now allows Wiccan priests and Rabbis to have services on their bases as well as protestants and Catholics. I knew most of y'all would disagree. If I weren't here, who would you have to get mad at?

I NEVER wanted anyone to be required to serve in the military to give their opinion, but do want the opinions of the majority to be valued and followed a lot more than the opinions of the minority. In YOUR way of thinking, if 1/10 of the people had the opinion that all Christian churches should give everybody that attended church $1,000, the churches would be full for every mass..

And to riceme- I'm not going to subscribe to the San Francisco Chronicle to be able to read the link you posted. It is from a paper in California though, one article about some students who don't say the pledge. I saw this caption under the picture of a line of San Francisco kids who were reciting the pledge:

Some Bay Area students rarely or never recite it."


If the article states as the caption says, that some students rarely or never recite it, I'm sure that's true here in Pensacola too. That doesn't mean it isn't part of the daily ritual of school, just that some kids don't say it.

That is common with Jehovah's Witness children who take their Christianity so seriously that they cannot and will not swear to put their country over their God.  
I don't see any problem with that, in fact, I understand what they are saying completely.
I don't completely disagree with them on it either.
One of the large problems with Christianity in this country is that it's all intermingled with nationalism and patriotic ferver and Christians have forgotten who they owe their supreme allegiance to.
Now jump up and down on me on that, I can take it because I know what that book that was removed from that table you're talking about actually says.

Jake92 wrote:

I NEVER wanted anyone to be required to serve in the military to give their opinion, but do want the opinions of the majority to be valued and followed a lot more than the opinions of the minority.  In YOUR way of thinking, if 1/10 of the people had the opinion that all Christian churches should give everybody that attended church $1,000, the churches would be full for every mass..  

Jake, I understand what you're saying about majority opinion, and I don't have any trouble with that when you're talking about making decisions about secular matters.
Religion is a completely different matter though.
It's personal to everyone and not everyone agrees with you and not everyone is a Christian.
Not every SOLDIER is a Christian.


Putting the Bible on the table says more about the people who put it there than it does about the KIA's and MIA's. It says that in order to completely  respect these people you have to believe like the majority in their country profess to believe. It's imposing one religion over another. Christianity should not be about imposition. It should be a religion that people of other faiths can see in Believers and that would cause them to want to join in, but it should not forced on anyone because of majority opinion. and certainly not there to make people of other faiths feel left out.

I'm not going to win this argument, I'm sure of that, but I do understand why the air force did what it did.

That is not what the article says and you do not have to subscribe to read it.

riceme wrote:

That is not what the article says and you do not have to subscribe to read it.

I don't know what the article said but you can't read it without signing into their site.
Not with my computer you can't anyway.

I did click your link.

To continue reading this story, you will need to be a digital subscriber to SFChronicle.com.



That's the message I got when I clicked onto your link.