Escambia county deputies raid homeless camp - 2/11/2014

http://www.bitcoinnotbombs.com/escambia-county-cops-attack-homeless-camp-in-pensacola-fl/

I received notice this morning that the city of Pensacola will be hosting a blanket drive for the homeless. It starts tomorrow and will go on for one week. I think it is a transparent attempt to lull the citizenry into complacencey yet again. I hope it won't stop people from attending the meeting at City Hall tomorrow night at 5:30 pm at which overturning the "blanket ordinance" will be discussed.

Simultaneously, the county deputies raid a homeless camp.

Those people seem to be doing what they can to keep from bothering people.

A few bad cops give all LEOs a bad name. Why can't the homeless people be left to live in peace?

They have a rough enough life as it is and certainly don't need ECSO bullies pushing them around.

PB, are you involved with Food Not Bombs?? I am one of the FNB servers who was charged in the RICO case way back when. It was a scary time, and I am still suffering repercussions because of that BS lawsuit, even though they were eventually forced to drop all the charges against us because, well, you know, they didn't have a freaking case... well, all of us are still suffering repercussions. We're on a watch list. I've often wondered how many man-hours were spent harassing us, as it went on for years. Well, that and how does one get themself off a damn watch list, lol. 

Sorry for going off subject. To circle back, the cops in Pensacola are assholes!!

You radical people... I don't know what I am going to do about you guys...

Eric wrote:

You radical people... I don't know what I am going to do about you guys...

Yyyesss, we cooked beans and fed them to hungry folks every day. GASP! Sooo radical!  

Eric wrote:

Those people seem to be doing what they can to keep from bothering people.  

A few bad cops give all LEOs a bad name.  Why can't the homeless people be left to live in peace?  

They have a rough enough life as it is and certainly don't need ECSO bullies pushing them around.

    Whoa!...These deputies acted on their own?...Were they told to take down the tarps etc.,...Those are the questions that need to be answered before blaming this on the deputies...Secondly if the homeless were on DOT Property and they requested the Sheriff's office to dismantle this camp then that needs to be taken into consideration before jumping on the anti-deputy bandwagon...let's see who gave orders or if orders were given...Nothing like a rush to judgement and perhaps be placing the blame on the wrong end to the pecking order....The 'ECSO Bullies' may not be the two that were mentioned...

They didn't have to come in the back way and cut lines. That shows disrespect for the property of the homeless people.

All they had to do was tell them to leave. Yes, they are bullies, pure and simple.

Eric wrote:

They didn't have to come in the back way and cut lines.  That shows disrespect for the property of the homeless people.

All they had to do was tell them to leave.  Yes, they are bullies, pure and simple.

Not defending the actions just asking what orders were given and the individual that gave the orders...Is this the first time that they were requested to leave the property?...There are many questions and there seems to be a rush to condemn before knowing the complete story...but then again when it involves law enforcement that seems to be the norm...

Eric wrote:

They didn't have to come in the back way and cut lines.  That shows disrespect for the property of the homeless people.

All they had to do was tell them to leave.  Yes, they are bullies, pure and simple.

I do have to say after reading the linked blog post that the author is biased toward portraying the homeless as victims. If you read the "Seans Outpost" blog the author has an apparent agenda against 'authority". I really don't see it as a big deal whether deputies went in the "front" or "back" - really, what difference does it make? These folks are on state property and more than likely the deputies were sent to disperse them. There is no "polite" way to do that and I'm sure they would rather not have to deal with it either. The headline of the blog is a little hyper don't you think?

nochain wrote:

Eric wrote:

They didn't have to come in the back way and cut lines.  That shows disrespect for the property of the homeless people.

All they had to do was tell them to leave.  Yes, they are bullies, pure and simple.

I do have to say after reading the linked blog post that the author is biased toward portraying the homeless as victims. If you read the "Seans Outpost" blog the author has an apparent agenda against 'authority". I really don't see it as a big deal whether deputies went in the "front" or "back" - really, what difference does it make? These folks are on state property and more than likely the deputies were sent to disperse them. There is no "polite" way to do that and I'm sure they would rather not have to deal with it either. The headline of the blog is a little hyper don't you think?

If the orders were to run them off and dismantle the camp...then what's the problem?...Would it make anyone feel any better had the property been collected and destroyed?...In cases like this before the trespassers have been told before to leave the property....but then again if it can present an opportunity to be anti-authority and or law enforcement then there are many that will always jump on that bandwagon....Enforcing the law is not 'bullying'...if a land owner wants people off their property then that's their right and law enforcement is tasked with enforcing that request...same goes with the state or anyone else that owns the property...and yes law enforcement officers may agree/disagree with a situation but they are sworn to uphold the law...they can disobey an unlawful order but clearing out trespassers would not be an unlawful order...

you really think cutting lines is required to inform people to leave? I don't. That's bullying. They did it because they could get away with it because they have badges.

Yeah, I agree about the mode of entry. It doesn't make a difference if they came in the front or back.

Eric wrote:

you really think cutting lines is required to inform people to leave?  I don't.  That's bullying.  They did it because they could get away with it because they have badges.

    Geez so personal!....Read the post....you would feel better if the property was collected and destroyed?...The property is gone either way...Don't know...don't care what your grudge is against all of law enforcement but the officers/deputies simply enforce the laws on the books...yes there are some that are 'bad apples' and they should be weeded out...and there are bad apples in every occupation but that doesn't mean that all in that occupation are bad people and abuse their power and or authority... but enforcing the laws is not a reason to condemn the officers/deputies...Again it's a huge assumption that these folks weren't told more than once to leave and the consequences should they not leave...Change the laws and establish homeless free camps and then there are no trespassing law violations...but it's like a lot of other things...let's be compassionate---but not on my property or neighborhood...It's a problem all right and fortunately or unfortunely law enforcement has to deal with the problem at the time and within the laws without consideration of whether it's more of a social issue rather than a law enforcement issue...It would be bullying or even illegal if the officers/deputies were acting out of the boundaries of the law....they simply were enforcing trespassing laws...no different than anyone else has to comply with....

The public needs to know who gave the order to raid that camp, if in fact the order was given. In my opinion, it falls back on Sheriff David Morgan, period.

I agree with Eric. This was bullying. There was no reason - absolutely none - that the LEOs should have approached the camp from the rear and ripped up the tarps while claiming "officer safety." That's bull. The fact that this happened during the same time period that Mayor Hayward changed his mind about the "blanket ordinance" amazed me. What an utter lack of communication between the city and the county!

And oh yeah, I'm sure the two people who wrote this article and filmed the responses of the members of that camp are biased. You bet they are. So am I. So be it.

And Riceme - I support Food Not Bombs, though I have never served. I'm probably on some watch list somewhere because of my Facebook activity. Wouldn't surprise me one bit. But I'm old, I'm not trying to please an employer, and frankly, Scarlett, I don't give a damn.

“An activist is someone who cannot help but fight for something. That person is not usually motivated by a need for power or money or fame, but in fact is driven slightly mad by some injustice, some cruelty, some unfairness, so much so that he or she is compelled by some internal moral engine to act to make it better.”

― Eve Ensler

Melissa wrote:

The public needs to know who gave the order to raid that camp, if in fact the order was given. In my opinion, it falls back on Sheriff David Morgan, period.

I agree with Eric. This was bullying. There was no reason - absolutely none - that the LEOs should have approached the camp from the rear and ripped up the tarps while claiming "officer safety." That's bull. The fact that this happened during the same time period that Mayor Hayward changed his mind about the "blanket ordinance" amazed me. What an utter lack of communication between the city and the county!

And oh yeah, I'm sure the two people who wrote this article and filmed the responses of the members of that camp are biased. You bet they are. So am I. So be it.

And Riceme - I support Food Not Bombs, though I have never served. I'm probably on some watch list somewhere because of my Facebook activity. Wouldn't surprise me one bit. But I'm old, I'm not trying to please an employer, and frankly, Scarlett, I don't give a damn.

I listened carefully to the video. Are you familiar with the layout of the camp? Why do you consider this a raid? Why did the blogger consider this an "attack"? Why shouldn't the Deputy have cut down a tarp that was obstructing his view of the camp? It was up there illegally anyway. At one point the deputy states they had come to the camp the week before and asked the people to leave, came back on the day in question and then came several hours later to check on progress. They gave the folks a week plus 24 hours to leave - not too unreasonable to me. They could just as easily rounded them all up an charged them with trespassing since it was stated there are No Trespassing signs all around the property.

I would suggest instead of the blogger harping about laws being enforced he should try to come up with an alternative housing solution. Except it's like M/W says - not on my property but let me complain nonetheless.

Melissa wrote:

The public needs to know who gave the order to raid that camp, if in fact the order was given. In my opinion, it falls back on Sheriff David Morgan, period.

I agree with Eric. This was bullying. There was no reason - absolutely none - that the LEOs should have approached the camp from the rear and ripped up the tarps while claiming "officer safety." That's bull. The fact that this happened during the same time period that Mayor Hayward changed his mind about the "blanket ordinance" amazed me. What an utter lack of communication between the city and the county!

And oh yeah, I'm sure the two people who wrote this article and filmed the responses of the members of that camp are biased. You bet they are. So am I. So be it.

And Riceme - I support Food Not Bombs, though I have never served. I'm probably on some watch list somewhere because of my Facebook activity. Wouldn't surprise me one bit. But I'm old, I'm not trying to please an employer, and frankly, Scarlett, I don't give a damn.

Fine then what laws did the officers/deputies violate?...Some have strong opinions about 'bullying' but explain how enforcing the law is bullying....yes to the homeless it may but they were in violation of the law [trespassing]...As far as the communication between the city and county....Florida State Statutes are the laws for both...there are city and county ordinances but officers/deputies can only enforce those that are on the books...If the mayor/sheriff acted out of the scope of those laws then they are and should be accountable but so far there's not even been the allegations of criminal wrong doing of law enforcement...Again...is it opinion and/or factual that the homeless were told to vacate before this happened?...There's a huge difference between perception and actual laws...there probably aren't many that would argue that this action makes either agency look compassionate but what would you have them do...not enforce the laws?...Officers/deputies aren't afforded with the luxury to pick and choose with laws/ordinances that they will or should enforce...well unless it's with the immigration debate and Fed..State...and City leaders are violating their sworn obligations by ordering officials not to enforce the laws and allowing sanctuary cities. this is one example of the mess when those sworn to uphold and enforce the laws do not...Don't care about the biased way this has been presented because if there were illegal activities done by the officers/deputies then there would be an point to the article and situation...but so far nothing has been hurt except feelings by those that feel the officers/deputies had no reason...again please quote that law to make the point...to continue to hammer the officers/deputies is pointless unless there is someone out there that can prove they violated statutes and/or acted out of the scope of their jobs...Look this isn't new and there was outcry when the homeless were move from the site of maritime park...why?...Because they were trespassing...Law enforcement took a hit on that too...but not one charge was ever brought against those that enforced the law...Civic/religious leaders stepped forward to assist those that were re-located but the park was built...

nochain wrote:

Melissa wrote:

The public needs to know who gave the order to raid that camp, if in fact the order was given. In my opinion, it falls back on Sheriff David Morgan, period.

I agree with Eric. This was bullying. There was no reason - absolutely none - that the LEOs should have approached the camp from the rear and ripped up the tarps while claiming "officer safety." That's bull. The fact that this happened during the same time period that Mayor Hayward changed his mind about the "blanket ordinance" amazed me. What an utter lack of communication between the city and the county!

And oh yeah, I'm sure the two people who wrote this article and filmed the responses of the members of that camp are biased. You bet they are. So am I. So be it.

And Riceme - I support Food Not Bombs, though I have never served. I'm probably on some watch list somewhere because of my Facebook activity. Wouldn't surprise me one bit. But I'm old, I'm not trying to please an employer, and frankly, Scarlett, I don't give a damn.

I listened carefully to the video. Are you familiar with the layout of the camp? Why do you consider this a raid? Why did the blogger consider this an "attack"? Why shouldn't the Deputy have cut down a tarp that was obstructing his view of the camp? It was up there illegally anyway. At one point the deputy states they had come to the camp the week before and asked the people to leave, came back on the day in question and then came several hours later to check on progress. They gave the folks a week plus 24 hours to leave - not too unreasonable to me. They could just as easily rounded them all up an charged them with trespassing since it was stated there are No Trespassing signs all around the property.

I would suggest instead of the blogger harping about laws being enforced he should try to come up with an alternative housing solution. Except it's like M/W says - not on my property but let me complain nonetheless.

As suspected...nothing to all the nonesense whining about 'raids'...'attacks' 'bullying' and abuse of power/authority...There are times when just because an article appears in written form doesn't mean it's correct...Easier to point fingers and blame rather than coming up with solutions to the problem...

A potential solution -private, not governmental - has already been provided. Have you read about Satoshi Forest? Do you know what Jason King and Michael Kimberl are trying to accomplish there? That IS one solution, yet the county was fighting it. Fortunately, the founders and the county had a meeting last week that resolved most of the concerns.

I have worked in the field long enough to know that we simply don't have enough shelter space available in the event of severe weather like we experienced a couple of weeks ago. The space just isn't there. If either of you are LEOs, you already know this.

I would hate to be a LEO who received an order to rip up a camp and destroy the belongings of the homeless. That happened in Pensacola back in November. Following orders, yes, but to what end?

So where are the homeless supposed to go when the temperature reaches 16 degrees? What is your solution? I am talking to both of you - MW and NoChain.

Great discussion, by the way.   

Melissa wrote:

A potential solution -private, not governmental - has already been provided. Have you read about Satoshi Forest? Do you know what Jason King and Michael Kimberl are trying to accomplish there? That IS one solution, yet the county was fighting it. Fortunately, the founders and the county had a meeting last week that resolved most of the concerns.

I have worked in the field long enough to know that we simply don't have enough shelter space available in the event of severe weather like we experienced a couple of weeks ago. The space just isn't there. If either of you are LEOs, you already know this.

I would hate to be a LEO who received an order to rip up a camp and destroy the belongings of the homeless. That happened in Pensacola back in November. Following orders, yes, but to what end?

So where are the homeless supposed to go when the temperature reaches 16 degrees? What is your solution? I am talking to both of you - MW and NoChain.  

The issue of homelessness is quite complicated. Government entities don't want to sponsor property as that subjects them to liability concerns. Private property owners have the same problem, they not only are liable if someone gets injured but then when (inevitably) the property becomes a waste heap they are liable for cleaning it up. I recall that for years there was place in Molino where many homeless or near homeless (some had little travel trailers) were left alone on county property. Eventually it became dangerous to even try to walk to the river to fish because of all the broken beer bottles, etc. The county blocked the place off. My company has worked with a veterans nonprofit group in Alabama that houses homeless veterans for up to ninety days and I have had many discussions with the staff about their issues - of which there are many. Their first requirement for allowing someone to stay is no drugs. The most successful places offer a limited time place to stay and some sort of transition training to help the homeless cope - many can't even use a bank account. That is the area we worked with that veterans nonprofit and many others - primarily foster care programs, offering transitional life skills training. One side of the coin to remember is many of these folks do have some sort of income, usually SSI but lack the skills to make that work for them. So, no easy answers but I can understand the reluctance of government and private property owners too. For severe cold weather (for me that is anything below 50 degrees) a shelter should be made available for evening hours at a minimum. But where? Perhaps instead of buying another commerce park Escambia County could purchase a vacant warehouse and convert it to an emergency shelter. Or a private activist group could do a fundraising effort. Or both.

MW, if you would read my posts, you would see that I did not disparage all LEOs. Please don't put words into my mouth. I have said in the past and I will say it again that most LEOs are good guys.

Some are assholes, and these guys are assholes.

Let's not assume that they are enforcing a lawful order either. I suspect if a lawful order was issued, there would be more than two guys and they would move the homeless folks off the property.

I agree with Eric & Melissa as well... they did not have to shred these folks' belongings and the responsibility ultimately falls to Morgan. To look at it from a different perspective, if you (any of you) or I had been tresspassing with say, a backpack, it would be highly unlikely for the responding LEO/s to cut the backpack straps... to destroy our property. They did it because they are homeless and disenfranchised. I have to wonder if there was really a lack of communication between the powers that be or if they were just trying to send a message before the blanket issue was decided upon, or re-decided upon. 

Regarding bias: there was a time in my life when I was very biased against law enforcement because of what they did to me and my friends, and having cooked and served thousands of meals for and to hungry and homeless people, having hung out, talked and spent time with many of them, having been friends with some, I can understand where the bias comes from. It begins as fear and grows into anger over time and experience. After nearly 20 years the fear of LEOs is still in me. Although I have been raped, beaten and assaulted more than what I feel is my fair share in my 42 years, I have only called the police once in my life, when a stranger broke into my home in Kansas and tased and assaulted me in 2011. The fear does not easily go away once it has been established, and I do not imagine it would take much for the anger to return. When I was in the Pensacola area I had numerous negative experiences with LEO. On each occasion I was the "victim," yet was treated like a criminal. Fortunately the interactions I've had with LEO in Kansas and in my hometown were very positive, despite the fact that I was in shock and traumatized for one of them. 

As it is, I am reminded of the failed RICO case against me and my friends every time I fly or cross an international border because I have the pleasure of getting frisked at each pass through TSA (one agent grabbed my crotch then both breasts before letting me pass), while my belongings are rifled through by an agent in front of the other travelers, my male colleagues included: my panties, bras and all. My truck gets disassembled at ground-borders, I get questioned at Customs. My brother, who is now a retired USMC Lt Col in Force Recon after over 20-yrs of dedicated service to our country had to explain how his little sister came to be on a terrorist watch list. He would not speak to me for years after that, and I cannot express to you how painful that was -- and still is -- for me. 

The cops who were responsible for the RICO charges against us for feeding hungry people changed the contours of our lives forever. So yeah, I can empathize with these people's fear, their anger. Their bias. My experience tells me that it may well be justified.

The homeless people were trespassing and Nochain, they were probably making an ungodly mess.  They should leave the DOT property.   I concede all these things.

It is HOW they are forced off this property and the willful destruction of their belongings that I call into question.  It was not necessary.  This is what I take issue to.

I wore a badge on the outside of my shirt pocket for 5 years and issued legal notices for health violations in the City of Pensacola and in Escambia County.  I enforced environmental laws for 22 years.  I took people (big and small) to court.  I enforced the laws.  I NEVER treated anyone with disrespect and destroyed their property.  I treated people like I would want to be treated.  If someone needed more time, I was eager to grant that time if they were making an effort to comply with my order.

I have good friends in the law enforcement community... at the ECSO and the FHP.  Former Sheriff Jim Lowman was a friend of mine.  I am not anti LEO... hell, I was one of 'em.