Something for PB

http://news.yahoo.com/japanese-whaling-ship-protesters-boats-151704270.html

Who may or may not be at fault here is irrelevant. If Watson and his band of outlaws do not start handling this through the legal system instead if vigilantism, someone is going to get killed. I think that you and I have had this discussion before and I do not condone what the Japanese are doing, but I also do not condone the way that Watson and his people are going about it.

Watson, et al can't handle it through the legal system. This is occurring in international waters, and it's well known that commercial whaling in those waters is illegal. Unfortunately, no country will step forward to enforce the current maritime law.

Japan is openly flouting the law. They are the true outlaws in this case, while all nations stand by and do nothing.

Thanks for thinking of me, though.

PBulldog2 wrote:

Watson, et al can't handle it through the legal system. This is occurring in international waters, and it's well known that commercial whaling in those waters is illegal. Unfortunately, no country will step forward to enforce the current maritime law.

Japan is openly flouting the law. They are the true outlaws in this case, while all nations stand by and do nothing.

Thanks for thinking of me, though.

If whaling in those waters is illegal, then that means that there is a legal recourse. I hate to say it but if I were the Japanese and they were harassing me, I would start going to sea armed to the gill and let them know that I meant business. You have noticed that since a large majority of the commercial ships hijackings that goes on in the area of Somalia has decreased dramatically since the owners have started arming their crews or hiring armed guards. If the Japanese started doing something like this, I can bet that Watson would think twice about the harassment of the Japanese vessels.

Commercial whaling, with very few exceptions, has been banned under the terms of the decree adopted by the International Whaling Convention in 1946. Two countries don't honor this ban: Japan and Norway.

The only country with the cajones to stand up to the Japanese thus far is Australia. Japan was whaling in Australia's whale sanctuary, so Australia was able to give them the boot in 2008.

There aren't too many countries that give a damn what happens down in Antarctica. That's why the Japanese use that area as their prime hunting ground. So far, they've been able to get away with it.

Watson and the Japanese are both savvy adversaries. The Japanese are wise enough to know that an armed response to Watson would bring on international condemnation that would result in loss of their hunting ground. Watson is wise enough to use this against the Japanese while simultaneously throwing a wrench in their operations whenever he can.

The hands of the Japanese whalers are tied. They can't bring charges against Watson and crew without bringing even more attention to the fact that they are the ones breaking international law.

Could someone die as a result of all of this? Absolutely. Whose fault would it really be - Watson's crew or the nation of Japan, which is allowing a segment of their society to break the law in the first place?

I maintain, without equivocation, that it is the Japanese whalers who are the true outlaws.

Let me ask you a question. Do you think that it is right that Watson tries and at times are able to disable the Japanese equipment, such as netting the ship propellers and other means to disable the Japanese vessels?

There is not one single whale that is captured that is worth the life of a human. I'm sorry, but I just do not see this on the same level as you do.

Sea Shepherd goes to court:

http://www.seashepherd.it/news-and-media/news-130212-1.html

And yes, Ghost, I think disabling the ships that engage in illegal whaling is a good move. I generally don't think along the line of "the end justifies the means", but in this particular case I do, because no governmental entity is stepping up to the plate on this serious issue.

Japanese whalers are breaking the law, Ghost. What they are doing is wrong on so many levels.

So yes, SSCS has my complete support. If I were younger, I would gladly volunteer as a crew member. My husband and I seriously considered this about two years ago. We both have the necessary skills to volunteer on the Sea Shepherd or other ships. Unfortunately, we are a bit too old to do this work. This is one of the few times I wish I were younger.

PBulldog2 wrote:

Sea Shepherd goes to court:

http://www.seashepherd.it/news-and-media/news-130212-1.html

And yes, Ghost, I think disabling the ships that engage in illegal whaling is a good move. I generally don't think along the line of "the end justifies the means", but in this particular case I do, because no governmental entity is stepping up to the plate on this serious issue.

Japanese whalers are breaking the law, Ghost. What they are doing is wrong on so many levels.

So yes, SSCS has my complete support. If I were younger, I would gladly volunteer as a crew member. My husband and I seriously considered this about two years ago. We both have the necessary skills to volunteer on the Sea Shepherd or other ships. Unfortunately, we are a bit too old to do this work. This is one of the few times I wish I were younger.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this issue, but according to the ICW, Japan is not doing anything illegal since their operation is considered research instead of commercial.

Research whaling is a fundamental right of every member of the IWC according to Article VIII of the ICRW. It is not a “loophole” in the Convention – rather it is a critical element of the Convention that requires that its decisions be based on scientific findings. Japan’s whale research programs are therefore perfectly legal. Further, Article VIII. 2 requires that research by-products (meat) be processed and sold under the Governments direction. This is a legally binding obligation on all IWC members who undertake research.

Ghost_Rider1949 wrote:

PBulldog2 wrote:

Sea Shepherd goes to court:

http://www.seashepherd.it/news-and-media/news-130212-1.html

And yes, Ghost, I think disabling the ships that engage in illegal whaling is a good move. I generally don't think along the line of "the end justifies the means", but in this particular case I do, because no governmental entity is stepping up to the plate on this serious issue.

Japanese whalers are breaking the law, Ghost. What they are doing is wrong on so many levels.

So yes, SSCS has my complete support. If I were younger, I would gladly volunteer as a crew member. My husband and I seriously considered this about two years ago. We both have the necessary skills to volunteer on the Sea Shepherd or other ships. Unfortunately, we are a bit too old to do this work. This is one of the few times I wish I were younger.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this issue, but according to the ICW, Japan is not doing anything illegal since their operation is considered research instead of commercial.

Research whaling is a fundamental right of every member of the IWC according to Article VIII of the ICRW. It is not a “loophole” in the Convention – rather it is a critical element of the Convention that requires that its decisions be based on scientific findings. Japan’s whale research programs are therefore perfectly legal. Further, Article VIII. 2 requires that research by-products (meat) be processed and sold under the Governments direction. This is a legally binding obligation on all IWC members who undertake research.

Baloney. They are doing commercial whaling under the guise of research. That is common knowledge. Have you seen any of the films of exactly what those "whale researchers" do? It is what those supposed researchers actually DO that is the reason SSCS has followed and photographed them for so long. They killed 20,000 whales over a period of just a few years - I'm not sure how many.

Out of curiousity, what is the source of your paragraph above?

PBulldog2 wrote:

Ghost_Rider1949 wrote:

PBulldog2 wrote:

Sea Shepherd goes to court:

http://www.seashepherd.it/news-and-media/news-130212-1.html

And yes, Ghost, I think disabling the ships that engage in illegal whaling is a good move. I generally don't think along the line of "the end justifies the means", but in this particular case I do, because no governmental entity is stepping up to the plate on this serious issue.

Japanese whalers are breaking the law, Ghost. What they are doing is wrong on so many levels.

So yes, SSCS has my complete support. If I were younger, I would gladly volunteer as a crew member. My husband and I seriously considered this about two years ago. We both have the necessary skills to volunteer on the Sea Shepherd or other ships. Unfortunately, we are a bit too old to do this work. This is one of the few times I wish I were younger.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this issue, but according to the ICW, Japan is not doing anything illegal since their operation is considered research instead of commercial.

Research whaling is a fundamental right of every member of the IWC according to Article VIII of the ICRW. It is not a “loophole” in the Convention – rather it is a critical element of the Convention that requires that its decisions be based on scientific findings. Japan’s whale research programs are therefore perfectly legal. Further, Article VIII. 2 requires that research by-products (meat) be processed and sold under the Governments direction. This is a legally binding obligation on all IWC members who undertake research.

Baloney. They are doing commercial whaling under the guise of research. That is common knowledge. Have you seen any of the films of exactly what those "whale researchers" do?

Out of curiousity, what is the source of your paragraph above?

Article VIII of the ICRW.

Just more proof that two people can read the same article and each person will garner something different from the same article.

Never mind posting the source, Ghost. I found it. This is the first sentence on that page:

"Japan's objective is to resume commercial whaling for abundant species on a sustainable basis under international control."

Here's another sentence from the same site. It is not taken out of context:

"Japan embraces a long history of sustainable utilization of whale products as a source of food."

And here is the source:
http://www.icrwhale.org/QandA1.html

Ghost, we will never agree on this issue. It's been good to discuss it further, though. I almost feel like I've been outed as a rebel of sorts, but that's okay, too. It also gave me a good reason to edit my signature line a tad.

PBulldog2 wrote:

Never mind posting the source, Ghost. I found it. This is the first sentence on that page:

"Japan's objective is to resume commercial whaling for abundant species on a sustainable basis under international control."

The part that I posted comes from from Article VIII of the ICRW. So until JARPA and JARPA-II are withdrawn, Japan has every legal right to conduct whale research in the SOS under the ICRW. BTW, JARPA and JARPA-II both were approved and ratified by the Australian government.

But I say again, placing the risk of loss of human life over that of an animal is just plain preposterous and if this upsets all the animal lovers out there, then unfortunately that is too bad as I offer no apologies for my opinions.

As I offer no apologies for mine.

Ghost_Rider1949 wrote:

Let me ask you a question. Do you think that it is right that Watson tries and at times are able to disable the Japanese equipment, such as netting the ship propellers and other means to disable the Japanese vessels?

There is not one single whale that is captured that is worth the life of a human. I'm sorry, but I just do not see this on the same level as you do.

YES I DO!

We are in a circle of life in which a human life is no more or less valuable than that of a whale. In fact in my book, the whale is a lot better creature than we are. They are being murdered yes murder is the correct word.


Quocumque modo!

whowherewhy wrote:

Ghost_Rider1949 wrote:

Let me ask you a question. Do you think that it is right that Watson tries and at times are able to disable the Japanese equipment, such as netting the ship propellers and other means to disable the Japanese vessels?

There is not one single whale that is captured that is worth the life of a human. I'm sorry, but I just do not see this on the same level as you do.

YES I DO!

We are in a circle of life in which a human life is no more or less valuable than that of a whale. In fact in my book, the whale is a lot better creature than we are. They are being murdered yes murder is the correct word.

Quocumque modo!

I agree. Murder is the correct word.

I write this as I am looking at the picture of a humpback whale with her baby that is on the wall in front of my computer.

In the article Ghost and I were discussing, it is stated that the murder of whales is "humane" because they use an "explosive harpoon" that causes death "within two minutes." They rationalize their position by going on to say that this is more humane than the methods used to kill other animals.

It made me sick. Just sick.

I am glad i cannot see the picture. The most abused and misused quote is "god gave man dominion" without going into exegesis this does not nor did it ever mean other species , our relations, were put here for our " use"

I think Ghost Rider has underestimated the committment of those who seek to defend the more helpless among us "by any means necessary"

So-called "research" is subterfuge. I prefer to call it slaughter.

No offense to you, Ghost_Rider.

whowherewhy wrote:

I am glad i cannot see the picture. The most abused and misused quote is "god gave man dominion" without going into exegesis this does not nor did it ever mean other species , our relations, were put here for our " use"

I think Ghost Rider has underestimated the committment of those who seek to defend the more helpless among us "by any means necessary"

I have not underestimated anything. I am just stating my opinion and on this issue is something I will never waiver from. Since I am an atheist I in no way would ever bring god into this issue. The commitment of Watson and his crew is admirable because they are committed to something in which they believe.

But for them to destroy the property of others is just wrong on all accounts and as I stated before, I would not stand for it. What the Japanese are doing may be morally repulsive to some, but destruction of property is also morally repulsive.

Ghost_Rider1949 wrote:

whowherewhy wrote:

I am glad i cannot see the picture. The most abused and misused quote is "god gave man dominion" without going into exegesis this does not nor did it ever mean other species , our relations, were put here for our " use"

I think Ghost Rider has underestimated the committment of those who seek to defend the more helpless among us "by any means necessary"

I have not underestimated anything. I am just stating my opinion and on this issue is something I will never waiver from. Since I am an atheist I in no way would ever bring god into this issue. The commitment of Watson and his crew is admirable because they are committed to something in which they believe.

But for them to destroy the property of others is just wrong on all accounts and as I stated before, I would not stand for it. What the Japanese are doing may be morally repulsive to some, but destruction of property is also morally repulsive.

Good post. Although I abhor the slaughter of whales, I cannot condone vigilantism.

If whaling in those waters is illegal, then that means that there is a legal recourse. I hate to say it but if I were the Japanese and they were harassing me, I would start going to sea armed to the gill and let them know that I meant business. You have noticed that since a large majority of the commercial ships hijackings that goes on in the area of Somalia has decreased dramatically since the owners have started arming their crews or hiring armed guards. If the Japanese started doing something like this, I can bet that Watson would think twice about the harassment of the Japanese vessels.[/quote

-------------
There is where you may have underestimated comittment Ghost Rider.

It is no one's right to murder. When u do so u forfeit your property, your humanity, and possibly more, as i said whatever it takes.....any means possible. Whereas violence begats violence the japanese will reap the whirlwind. Their cruelty is beyond conscience.

Eric wrote:

So-called "research" is subterfuge. I prefer to call it slaughter.

No offense to you, Ghost_Rider.

No offense to you, Ghost_Rider. [/quote]

Non taken, Eric.

whowherewhy wrote:

If whaling in those waters is illegal, then that means that there is a legal recourse. I hate to say it but if I were the Japanese and they were harassing me, I would start going to sea armed to the gill and let them know that I meant business. You have noticed that since a large majority of the commercial ships hijackings that goes on in the area of Somalia has decreased dramatically since the owners have started arming their crews or hiring armed guards. If the Japanese started doing something like this, I can bet that Watson would think twice about the harassment of the Japanese vessels.[/quote

-------------
There is where you may have underestimated comittment Ghost Rider.

It is no one's right to murder. When u do so u forfeit your property, your humanity, and possibly more, as i said whatever it takes.....any means possible. Whereas violence begats violence the japanese will reap the whirlwind. Their cruelty is beyond conscience.

Animals cannot and should not be placed on the same level of intelligence as humans. Regardless of how it is spun, destruction of property to meet your end is still wrong, no matter how strong your commitment is. I, like Eric, do not and will not support vigilantism and that is precisely what what Watson is doing.

Sure they should!

There are both powerful moral and scientific arguments for just this.
Your viewpoint places you in the position of making that moral call. God?

Whales as well as dolphins, dogs, chimps, elephants have something called self consciousness, this can be demonstrated / proved beyond question. What that means is that a whale ( for one) understands that it is an "I" that it is separate and distinct as an individual, furthermore WE KNOW, that whales have a language that they use not only to communicate with one another their position etc but also can describe to each other attributes of that which is not "i" and that Ghostrider is powerful. it means that each whale is an individual, i.e. a "person" if you will which embraces all that that implies.
Love, fear, pain, joy, we know that they indeed experience these emotions.

There is a moral imparitive to act and intervene in this situation. We look back on the slaughter of the great plains buffalo as a sensless immoral act of a white culture that did not understand the eco system of the plains and that by wiping out one species it tilted the entire ecosystem. That leads one to the scientifix basis for stopping the slaughter.

Dont kid yourself there is no court action in the Hague lol or UN thar will stop the japanese. They are the outlaws not the sea sheppard. The sea shappard has the guts and moral high ground to do what our country should to enforce international law.

I think the AUssies have issued an ultimatum to. Japan lately since they have encroached on Australian waters. The japanese don't care. Btw they didn't in WWII either, ask those who survived being captured by them......

whowherewhy wrote:

Sure they should!

There are both powerful moral and scientific arguments for just this.
Your viewpoint places you in the position of making that moral call. God?

Whales as well as dolphins, dogs, chimps, elephants have something called self consciousness, this can be demonstrated / proved beyond question. What that means is that a whale ( for one) understands that it is an "I" that it is separate and distinct as an individual, furthermore WE KNOW, that whales have a language that they use not only to communicate with one another their position etc but also can describe to each other attributes of that which is not "i" and that Ghostrider is powerful. it means that each whale is an individual, i.e. a "person" if you will which embraces all that that implies.
Love, fear, pain, joy, we know that they indeed experience these emotions.

There is a moral imparitive to act and intervene in this situation. We look back on the slaughter of the great plains buffalo as a sensless immoral act of a white culture that did not understand the eco system of the plains and that by wiping out one species it tilted the entire ecosystem. That leads one to the scientifix basis for stopping the slaughter.

Dont kid yourself there is no court action in the Hague lol or UN thar will stop the japanese. They are the outlaws not the sea sheppard. The sea shappard has the guts and moral high ground to do what our country should to enforce international law.

I think the AUssies have issued an ultimatum to. Japan lately since they have encroached on Australian waters. The japanese don't care. Btw they didn't in WWII either, ask those who survived being captured by them......

You can argue your point till the cows come home, however that will never change my opinion. Animals are still on a level intelligently below that of humans. This is a never ending argument and one that PB and I discussed at some length some time back and I rehashed it after I saw the article about the ships colliding. PB's opinion has not swayed mine one iota and neither has mine swayed hers, so I highly doubt that you will be able too either. Call me hard-headed, call me uneducated, but to sway me from my opinion, I would have to see unequivocal proof. We do know that teaching domesticated animals to do something is nothing more that a matter of repetition.

But this discussion is not about animals and more about who is right and who is wrong in the whaling issue and why vigilantism by Watson and his minions is morally wrong. Animal intelligence is a whole different discussion.

whowherewhy wrote:

Sure they should!

There are both powerful moral and scientific arguments for just this.
Your viewpoint places you in the position of making that moral call. God?

Whales as well as dolphins, dogs, chimps, elephants have something called self consciousness, this can be demonstrated / proved beyond question. What that means is that a whale ( for one) understands that it is an "I" that it is separate and distinct as an individual, furthermore WE KNOW, that whales have a language that they use not only to communicate with one another their position etc but also can describe to each other attributes of that which is not "i" and that Ghostrider is powerful. it means that each whale is an individual, i.e. a "person" if you will which embraces all that that implies.
Love, fear, pain, joy, we know that they indeed experience these emotions.

There is a moral imparitive to act and intervene in this situation. We look back on the slaughter of the great plains buffalo as a sensless immoral act of a white culture that did not understand the eco system of the plains and that by wiping out one species it tilted the entire ecosystem. That leads one to the scientifix basis for stopping the slaughter.

Dont kid yourself there is no court action in the Hague lol or UN thar will stop the japanese. They are the outlaws not the sea sheppard. The sea shappard has the guts and moral high ground to do what our country should to enforce international law.

I think the AUssies have issued an ultimatum to. Japan lately since they have encroached on Australian waters. The japanese don't care. Btw they didn't in WWII either, ask those who survived being captured by them......

Here is a tidbit I found regarding the whaling and the legality of it. This article dated December 2012 indicates that Australia will not monitor Japan's whaling activities although legal action was taken by Australia in 2010 in the International Court of Justice. The case should be heard sometime this year. So there is a legal avenue to be taken to stop this and that is all I have ever ask to be done.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/national/15733224/australia-wont-monitor-japanese-whaling/

Again, as I have said, I do not condone Japan killing the whales anymore that I cannot condone the vigilantism of the SSCS. Vigilantism never ever solves any problems, it just creates more.

Repetition did not teach this.

--------------///------/-


I am arguing that there is no adequate mechanism for enforcement and that there is a moral imperative to intervene.