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PostSubject: Re: Iraq Part III?....   Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:28 pm

salinsky wrote:
*~Tree~* wrote:
salinsky wrote:
That makes sense because what all Americans are really pining for is to take yet another big bite of yet another Middle Eastern shit sandwich.

So why do you think he got involved again?


I think he wants to prevent a genocide, wants to give the Iraqi army and the Peshmerga a chance to get their shit together, and most frustrating of all, placate our allies in the region who are suddenly panicked at the monster they largely created, financed, and armed.

Oh you mean like when we could have done something in Syria when that red line was crossed with killing all those people with GAS?
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PostSubject: Re: Iraq Part III?....   Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:32 pm

*~Tree~* wrote:
salinsky wrote:
*~Tree~* wrote:
salinsky wrote:
That makes sense because what all Americans are really pining for is to take yet another big bite of yet another Middle Eastern shit sandwich.

So why do you think he got involved again?


I think he wants to prevent a genocide, wants to give the Iraqi army and the Peshmerga a chance to get their shit together, and most frustrating of all, placate our allies in the region who are suddenly panicked at the monster they largely created, financed, and armed.

Oh you mean like when we could have done something in Syria when that red line was crossed with killing all those people with GAS?

We never had any good options in Syria, no friends, no allies, and no real evidence regarding which side used the chemical weapon.

It's a shit sandwich.
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PostSubject: Re: Iraq Part III?....   Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:29 pm

salinsky wrote:
*~Tree~* wrote:
salinsky wrote:
*~Tree~* wrote:
salinsky wrote:
That makes sense because what all Americans are really pining for is to take yet another big bite of yet another Middle Eastern shit sandwich.

So why do you think he got involved again?


I think he wants to prevent a genocide, wants to give the Iraqi army and the Peshmerga a chance to get their shit together, and most frustrating of all, placate our allies in the region who are suddenly panicked at the monster they largely created, financed, and armed.

Oh you mean like when we could have done something in Syria when that red line was crossed with killing all those people with GAS?

We never had any good options in Syria, no friends, no allies, and no real evidence regarding which side used the chemical weapon.

It's a shit sandwich.

But now we have good options?

excuses are getting old. There may be no good options but leaders must make hard decisions when faced with a two sided shit sandwich. They have to have "Vision". This is one of the thing leaders are required to have. Without vision, you cant lead. Your just following along the same old beaten path. Know what I mean?
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PostSubject: Re: Iraq Part III?....   Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:45 pm

*~Tree~* wrote:
salinsky wrote:
*~Tree~* wrote:
salinsky wrote:
*~Tree~* wrote:
salinsky wrote:
That makes sense because what all Americans are really pining for is to take yet another big bite of yet another Middle Eastern shit sandwich.

So why do you think he got involved again?


I think he wants to prevent a genocide, wants to give the Iraqi army and the Peshmerga a chance to get their shit together, and most frustrating of all, placate our allies in the region who are suddenly panicked at the monster they largely created, financed, and armed.

Oh you mean like when we could have done something in Syria when that red line was crossed with killing all those people with GAS?

We never had any good options in Syria, no friends, no allies, and no real evidence regarding which side used the chemical weapon.

It's a shit sandwich.

But now we have good options?

excuses are getting old. There may be no good options but leaders must make hard decisions when faced with a two sided shit sandwich. They have to have "Vision". This is one of the thing leaders are required to have. Without vision, you cant lead. Your just following along the same old beaten path. Know what I mean?

Nope.

And, I don't think you do either.

Don't get me wrong, Chrissy.

I wish we'd stay out of it altogether.

But, the situation in Iraq is different than the one in Syria, and there are different options available.

We can bring ISIS to heel in Iraq.

The problem is it doesn't solve any of the dynamics or opposing forces driving all of this.
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PostSubject: Re: Iraq Part III?....   Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:56 pm

salinsky wrote:
*~Tree~* wrote:
salinsky wrote:
*~Tree~* wrote:
salinsky wrote:
*~Tree~* wrote:
salinsky wrote:
That makes sense because what all Americans are really pining for is to take yet another big bite of yet another Middle Eastern shit sandwich.

So why do you think he got involved again?


I think he wants to prevent a genocide, wants to give the Iraqi army and the Peshmerga a chance to get their shit together, and most frustrating of all, placate our allies in the region who are suddenly panicked at the monster they largely created, financed, and armed.

Oh you mean like when we could have done something in Syria when that red line was crossed with killing all those people with GAS?

We never had any good options in Syria, no friends, no allies, and no real evidence regarding which side used the chemical weapon.

It's a shit sandwich.

But now we have good options?

excuses are getting old. There may be no good options but leaders must make hard decisions when faced with a two sided shit sandwich. They have to have "Vision". This is one of the thing leaders are required to have. Without vision, you cant lead. Your just following along the same old beaten path. Know what I mean?

Nope.

And, I don't think you do either.

Don't get me wrong, Chrissy.

I wish we'd stay out of it altogether.

But, the situation in Iraq is different than the one in Syria, and there are different options available.

We can bring ISIS to heel in Iraq.

The problem is it doesn't solve any of the dynamics or opposing forces driving all of this.

I never thought I'd say this out loud, but I actually might agree with Sal on this.

Wonders never cease, right?
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PostSubject: Re: Iraq Part III?....   Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:48 am

*~Tree~* wrote:
riceme wrote:
I really hate the whole partisan nitpicking game. It is so much bullshit.

agreed. but it is what it is. I would be fine if they got rid of political parties all together and just had people vote on ideas. That would mess up a lot of people wouldn't it LOL

Wouldn't it also be nice if some that vote actually knew something about the candidate they're voting for or their stance on the issues?.... Not today...it's all about whatta gonna give me.... Used to feel that everyone should vote and those that don't should keep their mouths shut...now starting to rethink about everyone voting....
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PostSubject: Re: Iraq Part III?....   Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:21 am

mediawatcher wrote:
*~Tree~* wrote:
riceme wrote:
I really hate the whole partisan nitpicking game. It is so much bullshit.

agreed. but it is what it is. I would be fine if they got rid of political parties all together and just had people vote on ideas. That would mess up a lot of people wouldn't it LOL

    Wouldn't it also be nice if some that vote actually knew something about the candidate they're voting for or their stance on the issues?.... Not today...it's all about whatta gonna give me.... Used to feel that everyone should vote and those that don't should keep their mouths shut...now starting to rethink about everyone voting....

I agree. I don't think it will ever happen. We have already gone down that road. Now votes are being bought.

And to sal, we knew who done the gas in Syria, they didn't want to act because they were arming them. That's not leadership to say we are not going to act on our red line and do the right thing because we don't like someone. That's petty.
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PostSubject: Re: Iraq Part III?....   Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:13 am

*~Tree~* wrote:
mediawatcher wrote:
*~Tree~* wrote:
riceme wrote:
I really hate the whole partisan nitpicking game. It is so much bullshit.

agreed. but it is what it is. I would be fine if they got rid of political parties all together and just had people vote on ideas. That would mess up a lot of people wouldn't it LOL

    Wouldn't it also be nice if some that vote actually knew something about the candidate they're voting for or their stance on the issues?.... Not today...it's all about whatta gonna give me.... Used to feel that everyone should vote and those that don't should keep their mouths shut...now starting to rethink about everyone voting....

I agree. I don't think it will ever happen. We have already gone down that road. Now votes are being bought.

And to sal, we knew who done the gas in Syria, they didn't want to act because they were arming them. That's not leadership to say we are not going to act on our red line and do the right thing because we don't like someone. That's petty.

When a nation states...a red line....game changer...and calls for the removal of a country's leader IF chemical weapons had been used...finding out that indeed they had been used...Then not do anything are not examples of leadership...
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PostSubject: Re: Iraq Part III?....   Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:16 am

We are not the world's policemen.  Our resources are finite and our boys are not expendable.  If the world decided the gassing needed policing, the UN could bring multinational force to bear... not that I'm a fan of the UN, mind you.  But then, there is the Russian veto, so UN action probably wouldn't happen either.  Back to square one... we are not the world's policemen.

We destabilized Iraq and have a moral responsibility to the Iraqi people since we made such a mess of things.  Before we removed the Sunni Saddam Hussein, who kept Shiites in check, the country was somewhat stable.  Hussein was ruthless, but arguably nothing like the ISIS folks who want to overthrow the minority, but US-backed Shiites, currently in power.

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PostSubject: Re: Iraq Part III?....   Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:21 am

It was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt the gas was from Saudi and the rebels used it not Assad...it was a false flag as usual to provoke a knee jerk attack....thank goodness for Putin....
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PostSubject: Re: Iraq Part III?....   Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:50 pm

Didn't Saddam kill over 500,000 at one time, including kids?
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PostSubject: Re: Iraq Part III?....   Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:06 pm

Joanimaroni wrote:
Didn't Saddam kill over 500,000 at one time, including kids?

Wikipedia says this:

Quote :
Al-Anfal Campaign: In 1988, the Hussein regime began a campaign of extermination against the Kurdish people living in Northern Iraq. This is known as the Anfal campaign. The campaign was mostly directed at Shiite Kurds (Faili Kurds) who sided with Iranians during the Iraq-Iran War. The attacks resulted in the death of at least 50,000 (some reports estimate as many as 182,000) people, many of them women and children. A team of Human Rights Watch investigators determined, after analyzing eighteen tons of captured Iraqi documents, testing soil samples and carrying out interviews with more than 350 witnesses, that the attacks on the Kurdish people were characterized by gross violations of human rights, including mass executions and disappearances of many tens of thousands of noncombatants, widespread use of chemical weapons including Sarin, mustard gas and nerve agents that killed thousands, the arbitrary imprisoning of tens of thousands of women, children, and elderly people for months in conditions of extreme deprivation, forced displacement of hundreds of thousands of villagers after the demolition of their homes, and the wholesale destruction of nearly two thousand villages along with their schools, mosques, farms and power stations.[3][4]

And there were reported one million deaths attributed to the Iran-Iraq War, which Hussein started.

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PostSubject: Re: Iraq Part III?....   Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:13 pm

Let's just cut the bullshit, and get down to brass tacks.

If you want Iraq and Syria stabilized, how many U.S. troops are you willing to commit, how much money are you willing to spend, and for how long.

Because I'm telling you right now, to truly stabilize that region you're gonna have to reinstate the draft and put the national treasury on the table.

You know no one else is gonna do it.

At the other end of the spectrum, we could say to hell with it and let these countries go through the extremely messy and bloody process of establishing new borders to new countries, which would involve countless wars and genocides, and most assuredly spill over into our allies in the region and probably Europe as well.

Or, we could proceed as Obama has so far, and just try to stamp out wildfires as they occur without getting involved in another intractable quagmire, then point at the President and call him feckless and lacking in leadership.

What's it gonna be?

Pick your poison.
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PostSubject: Re: Iraq Part III?....   Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:31 pm

We aren't going to send ground troops in there, I promise you.

I think our involvement will be limited to smart bombs fired from planes, bombs fired from drones, and a few advisers stationed well away from the fighting.

I don't think we should be giving them weapons or money to buy 'em. ISIS got a bunch of shiny new American equipment when Iraq's troops abandoned them and hightailed it away from the action. We don't need to give the ISIS fighters more of our weaponry... in Iraq or Syria. I shudder to think that an American surface-to-air missile might take down an American aircraft.

It is going to be up to the Iraqis and maybe some Iranian troops to push ISIS back.

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PostSubject: Re: Iraq Part III?....   Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:29 pm

My brother told me about satellite images seen in the. 90's of mass graves with bodies stacked 20 or more deep...., estimated to be more than 250,000.
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PostSubject: Re: Iraq Part III?....   Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:33 pm

Should be fun to sit by and watch happen. I guess eventually they will take over so much land etc they will probably end up being a nuclear state at some point. Then we can all debate weather we think they should have one.
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PostSubject: Re: Iraq Part III?....   Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:49 pm

*~Tree~* wrote:
Should be fun to sit by and watch happen. I guess eventually they will take over so much land etc they will probably end up being a nuclear state at some point. Then we can all debate weather we think they should have one.

Give me a break.

Get a hold of yourself.
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PostSubject: Re: Iraq Part III?....   Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:12 pm

Joanimaroni wrote:
My brother told me about satellite images seen in the. 90's of mass graves with bodies stacked 20 or more deep...., estimated to be more than 250,000.

I was a geospatial analyst doing photointerpretation of aerial photos of Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq for a consortium of military entities.  We were mapping GIS data for mapping systems... glorified GPS maps, if you will.  

All I can say, Joani, is that your Brother had some damn good photos, because none of the ones we used were good enough to see 20 layers of bodies.

Of course, we weren't using the best aerial photos available.  I wondered many times what it would have been like to have been using photos from those big KH-11 birds with sub-foot resolution.  It sure would have made our jobs easier.

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PostSubject: Re: Iraq Part III?....   Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:59 am

Eric wrote:
We aren't going to send ground troops in there, I promise you.

I think our involvement will be limited to smart bombs fired from planes, bombs fired from drones, and a few advisers stationed well away from the fighting.

I don't think we should be giving them weapons or money to buy 'em.  ISIS got a bunch of shiny new American equipment when Iraq's troops abandoned them and hightailed it away from the action.  We don't need to give the ISIS fighters more of our weaponry... in Iraq or Syria.  I shudder to think that an American surface-to-air missile might take down an American aircraft.

It is going to be up to the Iraqis and maybe some Iranian troops to push ISIS back.

You do realize that there have/are troops in Iraq prior to the humanitarian drops and the bombings... Special Forces have been in place to guide/direct the night drops....So to say no troops is a little misleading because as on military consultant stated...if there were night drops there were troops there..
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PostSubject: Re: Iraq Part III?....   Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:14 am

We have had troops on the ground since mid June.
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PostSubject: Re: Iraq Part III?....   Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:43 am

Joanimaroni wrote:
We have had troops on the ground since mid June.

Of course....now that the victims have left the top of the mountain then they'll certainly need protection from almost sure slaughter....
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PostSubject: Re: Iraq Part III?....   Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:45 am

Joanimaroni wrote:
Didn't Saddam kill over 500,000 at one time, including kids?

That's not a measuring point because his slaughter of the Kurds was not reason enough at that time and Bush was the President...
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PostSubject: Re: Iraq Part III?....   Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:35 am

I stand corrected Embarassed

I should have known, because I now remember when they sent those guys in so they could determine who to bomb. The administration blamed poor targeting confidence on why they didn't bomb earlier.

But those guys weren't put there to directly engage ISIS as I recall... only to gather intel for targeting purposes.

Here's where I try to save face: Let me rephrase what I said earlier by saying I don't think we're going to put forces on the ground to directly engage and defeat ISIS. I suspect we may deploy small teams to handle specific tasks like protect and/or evacuate American diplomatic staff (like we have already done).

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PostSubject: Re: Iraq Part III?....   Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:15 pm

I realize special operators are trained to operate independently and covertly and that we have enough experience in Iraq so they aren't looking at a totally new situation but I still hope there is a VERY good plan in the event a team needs medevac or pulled out quickly.
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PostSubject: Re: Iraq Part III?....   Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:31 pm

nochain wrote:
I realize special operators are trained to operate independently and covertly and that we have enough experience in Iraq so they aren't looking at a totally new situation but I still hope there is a VERY good plan in the event a team needs medevac or pulled out quickly.

Amen, brother.
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